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Author Topic: Whites  (Read 1923 times)

Annie.

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on: May 31, 2016, 05:46:06 AM
WHITES
Cremnitz white:
- last produced in early 1900's; note that some cie have borrowed the name for their product but it is a misnomer
- it is a Pb based white but the chemical process was different
- apparently had a vinegary smell

Pb white:
- lead is dangerous and breathing its powder would leed to irreversible poisoning overtime,
- only white available until 19th century,
- its purity depended on the purity of the lead,  it is a warm white
- turns dark when mixed with Cd based paints or ultramarine, so limited use.

Ti white:
- non-poisonous and permanent in its pure form, 
- the white of the 20th century, discovered in early 1800 but first mass produced in 1916 in Norway. 
- pure titanium oxide dry spongy and is usually mixed with other colour by artist, or with Zn white to balance the sponginess (which dries brittle).

Zn white:
- non-poisonous and permanent in irs pure form,
- mass produced in mid 19th century, although used as medicimal oitment since the 18th century (still used today on baby's bums)
- inexpensive to mass produce but it has poor coverage
- considred a cool white
- dry brittle and may crack, something artist don't like, so like Ti white, it is usually mixed with other colours or with Ti white

Permalba white:
- modern white created in 1920 in Philadelphia
- no chemical reaction with other pigments so it is a very stable white and it did not yellow, etc.
- very popular among oil artist for a while; not readily available anymore (I haven't come across why yet)

NOTE:  Paints with lead dry faster, they have been banded in most countries starting in the early 1970's but most house build before 1960 would have lead-paints.  Interesting, white lead pigments are still available to artists but are not commonly used as Zn and Ti whites are readily available and relatively inexpensive.

Disclaimer:  These are from my notes collected over a period of time .  I have not proof the information nor completed a full lit search nor cross-reference
Cheers, Annie
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”    ― Plato


mea hamo pena

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Reply #1 on: May 31, 2016, 07:41:53 AM
Annie,

I just bought a 150ml tube of original Permalba White on Amazon for $15.00 - free shipping with Prime.  It's made by the Martin/ F. Weber Co in Philadelphia.    weberart.com

I real like using it - seems to dry faster than other whites - really creamy, makes great clouds.  My plein air instructor recommended it.

aloha

mea
A day without art is like a day without sunshine.


Annie.

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Reply #2 on: May 31, 2016, 10:14:53 AM
Interesting, so still popular I see.

F Weber cie started manufacturing this paint in 1921. Weber must dead now but clearly the cie is still in business.  It said it was 78% pure pigment + 22% oil.  Is this what you bought?
Cheers, Annie
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”    ― Plato


mea hamo pena

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Reply #3 on: May 31, 2016, 10:52:27 AM
All it says for Ingredients on the tube is

PIGMENTS: PW-6, PW-4  Titanium Dioxide, Zinc Oxide

VEHICLE:  Alkalai Refined Safflower Oil

Conforms to ASTM D-4236 and ASTM D-4302

aloha

mea
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Annie.

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Reply #4 on: May 31, 2016, 06:20:40 PM
Ah Ah!  I think I understand.

Permalba is simply a mix of Ti White (PW6 = Ti dioxide) + Zn White (PW4 = Zn oxide).   This explains the comment I read that Ti white was to spongy alone and Zn white was to brittle alone, but that mixing them together neutralize those unwanted qualities.  It also explain the stability of Permalba (as both Zn and Ti White are stable, non toxic, and non yellowish - at least in their pure form).

I will now need to experiment mixing Ti and Zn white in various proportion to see what comes out to the creamy consistency you like!

 Yabadabadoo!  Chemistry is fun! 
Cheers, Annie
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”    ― Plato


Val

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Reply #5 on: June 01, 2016, 12:28:54 PM
 ::)   Yep... it's all fun and games until you blow up the chemistry lab! .......    :whistle:     >:D         :2funny:
Cheers, Val

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Annie.

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Reply #6 on: June 01, 2016, 04:51:25 PM
Been there... part of the fun Val, isn't? 
Cheers, Annie
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”    ― Plato


Val

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Reply #7 on: June 03, 2016, 04:36:28 PM
BOOM!!!   :-X     :2funny:
Cheers, Val

”Creativity is allowing yourselves to make mistakes. Work on knowing which ones to keep!”

- Alvaro Castagnet


Annie.

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Reply #8 on: June 03, 2016, 08:26:57 PM
Yap!   Amount other things, I burned the full inside of my mouth while pipetting sulfuric acid... just grab the small size pipette by mistake.

 I heve been told kids these days are not allowed to mouth pipette anything... not even water.  Makes a lot of sense... security first.  But honestly, we had much more fun.  Also the stun we did... probably would go to jail today for the same thing.
Cheers, Annie
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”    ― Plato


CSebesta

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Reply #9 on: November 03, 2016, 01:33:58 PM
Annie, what recipe did you finally end up with?

I am guessing Permalba is lindseed oil based and I like walnut oil.

Without a recipe maybe 50/50 to start?

Charles


Annie.

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Reply #10 on: November 04, 2016, 06:09:00 AM
I have done a chart Ti/Zn in  0/4 1/4 2/4 3/4 4/4 proportion and left it outside to age under the sun this summer.  It is now inside in a sunny window.  So far still stable.  It doesn't photography well to post it.

I like the mix 50:50 (2/4) with a bit of walnut oil.  Covers well and smoother under the brush.  I always find that my Ti white is "different" under the brush, in a not good way.  I used the mix a few times in real painting and it was good.

I assume only time will show if worth the effort.

Saying that, it is probably a futile extra step because we basically never use white alone.  And I think the comment about the unwanted qualities of Ti and Zn respectively must mostly apply to painting in pure or near pure white.

It is likely sufficient to add Ti white for opaque and Zn white for a more transparent glaze.

I also use walnut oil.  It is good to try to understand such stuff. 
Cheers, Annie
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”    ― Plato


mea hamo pena

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Reply #11 on: November 04, 2016, 08:51:53 AM
It is likely sufficient to add Ti white for opaque and Zn white for a more transparent glaze.

Thanks, Annie, I found this part of your message to be particularly useful to me.

aloha

mea
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CSebesta

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Reply #12 on: November 04, 2016, 02:12:45 PM
Thanks Anniie,

I will be ordering a tube of zinc white with my next paint/brush order.

To Mea's point maybe there is something more than workability, transparency which maybe more important for some paintings.  Though I suppose extra medium might work the same way.

I agree paint blending is fun, not so sure about chemistry lab. 

Charles


Annie.

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Reply #13 on: November 05, 2016, 02:25:52 AM
MEDIUM
I have kept think simple so far, but I am still not always clear when people say 'medium'...

For oil, the medium is oil.  But when people add Alkyd to speed up the drying time, would it still be call a medium?

But for acrylic, the standard medium dries clear and so doesn't affect the color if use in proportion of less than 50%?  Then after that it will start to become transparent.  What about all those gels, texture pastes, etc. are they also referred to as medium?

I heard 'oil medium', but isn't oil the medium for oil painting?  Or are there something more out there?

« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 02:30:09 AM by Annie. »
Cheers, Annie
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”    ― Plato


Annie.

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Reply #14 on: November 05, 2016, 02:40:29 AM
Ti WHITES

Yes Mea, pure Zn white does not cover as well as Ti white.  You can think of Ti white as opacifying a transparent color while Zn white will keep it transparent; in addition to make it palor.  I haven't done the acrylic glazing lesson but would assume that when white is needed it should be the zink... or lots of transparent medium.

Now, think about Gesso.  It is made with Ti dioxide white.   It is opaque and has good covering power.  But if you tint your white gesso, you would get a dull color, not a brilliant one.  So armed with this knowledge you know that you could never make a black gesso by adding a black tint to a white gesso.

FUN TEST
Make the test, with an opaque color and with a transparent color.  I did it and if I can find it, I will post it. 
Y ochre + Ti white  --- dull color
Y ochre + Zn white --- brighter color
Y ochre + Ti/Zn whites (1:1)  --- actually mine was dull and I could not see a difference with pure Ti white

Now do the same with a transparent color, like aliz crimson.  Very interesting.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 06:35:05 PM by Annie. »
Cheers, Annie
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”    ― Plato


 

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