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Author Topic: Selling Your Art Course  (Read 1847 times)

Kathysutterlin

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Reply #30 on: December 19, 2016, 02:14:42 PM
I very much appreciate your opinion, Robert. Thanks for all the back ground info.  :thankyou:

I'm glad you shared your website.  O0
Kathy S.


Annie.

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Reply #31 on: December 19, 2016, 03:29:36 PM
Thank you Robert, but please note that my reply was framed as a question.  As I am not an expect on any art topics.  Thanks for your clear explanation.

This is what I have done so far, with modern 'permanent' ink.  It is not on the cotton of the canvas but on the gessoed extension of the front that is wrapped around the stretcher bars.  Probably still not good enough, but again, unlike most of my fellow artists, I am not aspiring to be discovered and art is for my own enjoyment and maybe a bit for some close friends.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 03:32:06 PM by Annie. »
Cheers, Annie
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”    ― Plato


artistforsaleorrent

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Reply #32 on: December 20, 2016, 06:25:09 AM
Annie,
I suppose that will work for you, as long as when it's set in a frame, the clips holding the stretched canvas don't cover or scratch your information. I did notice one small item that caught my attention though and I'm presupposing that you actually went through the formality of obtaining a copyright or else using the circle c isn't warranted--- as paintings alone usually aren't copyrighted. It's when you decide to commercially reproduce the actual image of the painting as a series of prints or in a book that copyrighting becomes necessary. A painting usually has a single owner for a certain period of time. And since they own that painting, they can do anything they want with it, including having a print shop photograph it and copy the image onto any material they so choose, without your permission- copyrighted or not,--- unless of course, your contract for the sale of the painting involves verbiage that precludes such action without your permission.

But just for your information and for others... if you didn't fill out the forms, sent in the copyright licensing fee with the form, and wish to commercially reproduce the image (not the painting but as several gicleés and want to sell them), you can still legally copyright your work by using a very simple method I was informed by my own attorney and used in my early days before including these fees  to copyright the artwork I created to illustrate someone's book---- and believe it or not, I still maintain a plastic tub full of these very early works ------ simply take a photograph of the art, place the photo in an envelope addressed to and from you but NEVER open it after you receive it back. Simply write the date on the envelope when it arrived, sign it, have a mate or friend witness it with their own signature and date, and file it away. Should there be any questions concerning the authenticity of the art by your own hand, your lawyer can present it as evidence, the magistrate will then open the sealed envelope and reveal it's contents, obviously proving your copyrighted work. But remember, once you sell the painting through a gallery or via private means, your copyright is therefore null and void, unless, again, your purchase contract says that the image may not be commercially reproduced without the expressed permission of the artist "so and so", and that it is the responsibility of the buyer "so and so" to communicate such proposed action prior to the actual implementation of the reproduction process.

I understand that you may be painting for your own enjoyment and I admire this attribute. Be forewarned though, once others see the art you give to your close friends is viewed by their own circle of friends, you may find yourself being asked to "paint something for me, please" and as I did as a teenager, find yourself on the road to a career as an artist.
Then my friend, you might just find yourself unknowingly and unintentionally "discovered". Good luck, Annie.

Never be afraid to fail, because after all, "fail" actually stands for "the first attempt in learning". Robert


Annie.

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Reply #33 on: December 20, 2016, 07:07:59 AM
Yes this painting was dutifully copyright.  It was circumvoluted and I do not claim I fully understand why, as I thought giving the painting with a  simple written permission for them to use for publicity should have suffice.

I was happy it was my painting of course, and this is the extend of me being... discovered ☺  I actually did not like it, not my style.  I just followed their spec and did it at their request... not many offer to give a painting from established artists 😕   I am fully aware it is not recommended to do that and I understand the implications, but I am okay with it. 
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 08:31:34 AM by Annie. »
Cheers, Annie
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”    ― Plato


artistforsaleorrent

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Reply #34 on: December 20, 2016, 07:12:47 AM
Friends,

After penning this reply to Annie and while sitting outside in our screened-in porch, smoking a cigarette and drinking my second cup of coffee, I suddenly came to the abrupt thought that many of you might not have the slightest idea what your legal rights may involve before and after you sell a painting while commissioned, from a gallery, or at an art fair. I thought to myself that many of you might not even have an "Artist's" contract and are therefore very vulnerable and unprotected should someday you see a proverbial mass of your individual painting being sold on the roadside or appearing on a commercial calendar. And while this may bring you some pride, it also means that you lost some revenue due you.

My attorney prepared this for me in 1972 and I've used it exclusively without a single problem ever since. Feel free to copy and paste it onto your own word processing program and alter it to your own specific intent.

_____________________________________________________________



YOU
your mailing address
your phone number
your email or web site address

INVOICE/CONTRACT

      WITNESS THIS AGREEMENT BETWEEN (you)
hereinafter referred to as the Buyer, and you, owner of (your art studio), hereinafter referred to as the Artist.
       WHEREAS, the Buyer has examined the Artist’s portfolio of available completed works of Art and desires for the Artist to produce works of Art in accordance with the hereinafter generalized specifications, and
       WHEREAS, the Artist is willing to produce such a work for the Buyer.

NOW THEREFORE WITNESS this Agreement, for that and in consideration of the sum of (one half the amount) by check/direct deposit/Paypal/credit card, the receipt of which is hereby acknowledged, the Buyer agrees to buy and the Artist agrees to produce and sell to the Buyer for the sum of (the total amount), a work or works of Art to be produced with the following general specifications, to-wit: all the    ( you then generally describe the illustrations, including interior and covers for the book " --- "  / oil acrylic water color painting/portrait/land or seascape, etc ) titled such and such).

The purchase price shall be paid as follows, to-wit:
$ (1/2 of the agreed amount) (USD/Euros) to be paid as a non-refundable earnest deposit.
$ (1/2 of the agreed amount) (USD/Euros) to be paid upon completion of the commission.

Completion of the works of Art shall be on or about (whenever the parties agree on it) and the parties agree that unless it is specified by a deadline date, the completion date is not a matter of essential timing. The Artist agrees that in so naming a completion date, he will complete the works of Art, bearing in mind that should unforeseen circumstances prevent him from completing the aforesaid works of Art, he/she will recompense the Buyer under the provisions of this Agreement, these being: delivery of the works of Art “as is” and payment of a sum derived from the amount of $10.00 (ten dollars) per working day from that date, to the Completion date contained herein.

The Buyer shall have no right or interest in any particular work of the Artist until such a time as the Artist actually produces all the works of Art heretofore described for the Buyer.

The parties agree that should the Buyer fail to accept delivery after notification that the works are completed by the Artist as previously stated, or fail to pay the additional cash at the time of delivery, or should the Buyer otherwise default under terms of this Agreement, the measure of damages due to the Artist by the Buyer shall be assessed as $20.00 (twenty dollars) per working day from the time of the execution of this Agreement to the day of default, plus any expenses and costs incurred by the Artist in the production of the works of Art, interest from the Agreement delivery date at the applicable judgment rate, reasonable attorney’s fees incurred by the Artist in connection with this Agreement or with the enforcement of this Agreement, and all court costs.

The Buyer agrees to accept delivery of the works of Art within seven (7) working days after the Artist notifies the Buyer that the works of art are completed and the Buyer, unless otherwise specified in this Agreement, shall own full rights to the actual painting/illustrations forever.

The Artist agrees and informs the Buyer that the finished works of art are the sole property of the Buyer and that the Buyer ...    may/may not     copyright and/or commercially reproduce the work of art .... without the written and/or oral consent of the Artist.

The terms and provisions contained in this Agreement shall apply to, inure to the benefits of and be binding upon the parties hereto and their heirs, successors in interest, and legal representatives, except as otherwise expressly provided.

This Agreement and any rights hereunder, except as otherwise provided herein, shall not be assigned without the prior written consent of the other party. This Agreement contains the entire understanding between the parties and may not be modified except by written memorandum signed by both parties.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF the Buyer and the Artist have executed this Agreement this (today’s date), and affixed their signatures.



( SIGNATURE )  _____________________________________   Author

_________________________  Date




( ELECTRONIC SIGNATURE ) You the Artist
(today’s date)




Never be afraid to fail, because after all, "fail" actually stands for "the first attempt in learning". Robert


Annie.

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Reply #35 on: December 20, 2016, 07:17:54 AM
A painting usually has a single owner for a certain period of time. And since they own that painting, they can do anything they want with it, including having a print shop photograph it and copy the image onto any material they so choose, without your permission- copyrighted or not,--- unless of course, your contract for the sale of the painting involves verbiage that precludes such action without your permission.

???  That cannot be correct.  I cannot buy one of Nolan's painting and them go make giglees of it.  I canot even print greeting cards from a painting I did following one of the classes on PB.

The copyright remain, by default, with the artist.   In Canada there is an obscure exception for commissioned portrait.  Canadian artists who do portrait on commission are careful to attach a clear understanding of who has permission to do what... just in case.
Cheers, Annie
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”    ― Plato


Annie.

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Reply #36 on: December 20, 2016, 07:20:20 AM
As for the self mailed image, would an electronic date stamped attached to the photo do the same.  I would like to know what a lawyer would say to that.
Cheers, Annie
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”    ― Plato


artistforsaleorrent

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Reply #37 on: December 20, 2016, 07:27:32 AM
Actually Annie,

I have donated paintings for seven years at this point, to the Jason Plite Memorial Foundation, free of charge to the organization who then silently auctions them off to obtain proceeds to fund college scholarships for deserving high school students. And truth be told, these paintings go without legal representation - no contract, just a belief that these paintings will "find a home" and stay there for enjoyment not for further profit. I do receive a statement to use should I determine that I could use these as a "tax write off, a donation so to speak" after the yearly event, but have never done so to date.

The generalized contract I posted while you were posting your note might very well not apply for that specific event, but I urge all reading this continuing conversation, to thoughtfully consider using a contract such as this if you don't already do so, and to pass this on to many of the Paint Basket members who may not be so inclined or knowledgeable of the business aspects of Art. And while I'm not at all acquainted with New Zealand copyright specifics, I am inclined to believe that such a contract would protect you folks as well.

Feel free to connect should questions arise.
Robert
Never be afraid to fail, because after all, "fail" actually stands for "the first attempt in learning". Robert


Annie.

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Reply #38 on: December 20, 2016, 07:28:53 AM
Friends,

After penning this reply to Annie and while sitting outside in our screened-in porch, smoking a cigarette and drinking my second cup of coffee, I suddenly came to the abrupt thought that many of you might not have the slightest idea what your legal rights may involve before and after you sell a painting while commissioned, from a gallery, or at an art fair?


I fully agree.  My most important concern is actually not infringe on any one else copyright and intellectual property, both at work and in my artistic pursue.

I will know leave the discussion to established artists... but will keep reading.

Kathy you started a great discussion with your question about your signature.
Cheers, Annie
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”    ― Plato


artistforsaleorrent

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Reply #39 on: December 20, 2016, 07:59:31 AM
Annie,

Unless Nolan specified within the guidelines of this entire web site/school that his images used as practice or as a learning tool were never to be reproduced or that anyone violating the "rules" so to speak would be prosecuted in New Zealand for a copyright infringement by doing so, I suspect seriously that an unscrupulous person could in fact take an electronic image of their attempt at reproducing one of his practice images to a gicleé shop and produce several "for sale" and Nolan would be none the wiser, since I suspect his roots are deep in that part of the world, I dunno, maybe by chance he sees one hung in a gallery during a visit to Montreal or Quebec and then what?

If I bought a painting from you, without an agreement that I could not reproduce it, and I were unscrupulous (which believe me I am not) how could you possibly stop me from doing so? Or if the inverse were true, how could I, without a legal agreement, stop you from doing so? Perhaps after the fact, I could proceed legally, and perhaps after the fact, I could receive a favorable judgement in an American court, but I'd need an international attorney to actually enforce such a finding in Canada. Hardly worth the expense, unless of course, you were selling them at Walmart or ArtRUs, getting thousands daily by sheer volume, and even then, my settlement would be peanuts when considering the lawyer's fees.

Worse though, at least to me, would be your googling my name, going to google images, and making a screen shot of one of my pieces or part of the books I have illustrated, printing it on your HP desktop printer, then taking it downtown and reproducing hundreds of it as your own. This is what bothers many of us tremendously. First, how do we know it happened, two, how can we prevent it and three how can we prosecute that unscrupulous individual in China or Pakistan or sadly to say in Russia?

With google by-laws, even today any image you post on the world wide web (even here I suspect) in an email, a public eForum or on a web site automatically becomes a google image and is available as an aol image, a bing image etc. Even with an embedded copyright watermarked symbol, anyone (and I gasped loudly when a snot nosed high school freshman with Photoshop pulled one of my images, and in minutes erased my watermark while I watched mesmerized) can reuse/reproduce/steal the fruits of our labor. The American legal system is very far behind the ball on this issue... but I digress.

The contract is for the purpose of protecting yourself while the sale of your single piece of art progresses and afterwards if you so choose. Hope this helps -
Robert
Never be afraid to fail, because after all, "fail" actually stands for "the first attempt in learning". Robert


Annie.

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Reply #40 on: December 20, 2016, 08:28:25 AM
There is a clear Agreement (last post on the forum) that you have agreed to when you sign in.  Also the following is part of any classes and I find it very clear, fair, and straighforward.  I copied one randomly.   

Of course people can steal, but it doesn't make it any legal because they don't get caught.  :knuppel2:   I also have a beef when I hear something like  "it may not be ethical, but it is legal so I do it"... makes me boil inside.  I am sure most artists conduct themselves in a highly professional manners, and the bad ones are the exceptions.

Publisher Artist and Author
Paint Basket Ltd Nolan Clark
14 Ian Sage Ave
Torbay
New Zealand http://www.paintbasket.com
Legal

The author and publisher have made their best effort to provide a high quality, informative
document. However, they make no representation or warranties of any kind with regard to
completeness or the accuracy of the contents of this text. They accept no liability of any kind for
any losses or damages caused or alleged to be caused, directly or indirectly, from using the
information contained herein.
.
Still Life Painting Essentials
Copyright 2012, All Rights Reserved.

No part of this publication may be stored in a retrieval system, transmitted, or reproduced in any
way, including but not limited to digital copying and printing without prior agreement and written
permission from the authors.

Please Note
This book is for personal use only and is part of a course available at http://www.paintbasket.com

You may NOT sell, rework, extract, or use any part of this book for any reason whatsoever unless as
stated below.
If you are a business, tutor or instructor and would like to use our material, please contact us first.
You don’t like it when others steal your artwork / ideas. This book is our work of art, so please
don’t steal our art either.

You May :
Make photo copies of the reference material in this manual in order to paint your own version of it.
You may NOT sell the artwork produced from following the course. The course and artwork
remains our intellectual property and copyright. All other copyrighted materials remain their
respective owners, as credited throughout the manual.

All paintings and photos marked “public” underneath are public domain and may be copied and
sold.
Still Life Painting Essentials – paintbasket.com 128
Cheers, Annie
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”    ― Plato


Kathysutterlin

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Reply #41 on: December 20, 2016, 09:59:55 AM
 :clap: Oh Yes, Robert and Annie. This is a most interesting and informative topic. I have nothing more to add as you both covered the topic of copyright thoroughly. Many thank yous. I am enjoying the education much.  :hug:
Kathy S.


Annie.

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Reply #42 on: December 20, 2016, 10:27:26 AM
Kathy,
You can learn even more with Dennis.

In the Forum, under Other, see Copyright Questions:  Dennis write 6 articles (part 1 to part 6) on this subject.  They are excellent to get all the basic you need to avoid legal problem, and tips to also protect your work.
Cheers, Annie
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”    ― Plato


artistforsaleorrent

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Reply #43 on: December 20, 2016, 11:06:55 AM
Thank you. I was unaware of these documents, even though they don't apply to those not taking Nolan's classes , those who are offering their expertise and sage advice to those of you who are either just starting out or are mature enough to request additional technique advancement. However, this is the world wide web and I suspect unscrupulous individuals within or without can "borrow and augment" anything we post without ramifications other than getting "kicked off this web site". Real world ethics may apply, notwithstanding the integrity of members, but our original conversation was about copyrighting a single painting.

As for the legalese by Nolan in signing up to participate, that's obviously for those who participate in his classes and is quite valid per say copyright issues but we weren't discussing his artwork. I started this concerning your own use of the circle c which you readily explained was handled by the other lawyer... Case closed. However, I still maintain that any artist here should 1)have a contract with anyone they do business with and 2) if a contract is necessary, make sure the reproduction rights are protected.

When I was the owner and manager of the Eons.com Art School (now defunct of which many many members came here for further art instruction which is also how I personally found you), we had one fellow who made screen shots of some obscure yet very accomplished artists and claimed them to be his own. Several of the 200 plus members notified me that they'd been to other web sites which showed the exact same artwork done by other hands. And while I could somewhat understand a youngster wanting to impress us oldsters and quite possibly obtain "work" as a result of these false claims, I nonetheless contacted the "powers that be" of Eons.com and had his account deleted immediately. I'm sure Nolan, as artist and administrator is busy enough actually administering this entire site, plus trying to create art which increases his financial status outside this web address, to be as observant as I was and would address these matters quietly and quickly. But this leaves us from the question of copyright establishment and/or infringement.

My question for all reading this... what happens to your artwork after it has been sold to an individual and do you have any resources to prevent it from becoming "Public domain"?
Robert
Never be afraid to fail, because after all, "fail" actually stands for "the first attempt in learning". Robert


nolan

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Reply #44 on: December 20, 2016, 12:05:50 PM
Kathy - your new slanted signature is great as it contains a slant that is unique and unusual :yippee:

Annie - your signature is fine

First and last name in signature - I don't agree that you need to use your first and last name in your signature. If there is ever any doubt about the originality of your artwork, or if it is fake, there are other methods to test. Any forger will be able to sign your name perfectly no matter how long it is. Experts will be able to tell if your artwork has been forged by looking at things like the brush strokes used, materials used, etc.

Copyright - The minute you produce an original artwork, it is automatically protected by copyright. This means that you do not have to register each artwork at the copyright office.

Proving you own the copyright into a manuscript / book is as simple as posting it to yourself and then never opening it again. To post a photo, etc. to yourself is pointless as it only proves you had access to the artwork at the time of posting.

Further when you sell an artwork, you retain the copyright into that artwork and do so until the copyright expires, it does NOT transfer to the buyer unless agreed to in writing. This means that the buyer is NOT free make or sell prints of the artwork, etc.

You however CAN make and sell prints of a sold artwork. You don't need permission or anything from the buyer of the original as you own the copyright into the artwork. Having said that I feel it is only fair that you inform the buyer of the artwork that you will be / are selling prints, etc. of the artwork BEFORE they buy the artwork. My recommendation now and in the course is that the artwork you are going to make prints of are kept in your personal collection for three reasons : a) This makes the prints exclusive b) If you ever need to re-photograph the artwork you can, c) you as the artist have the original which makes it very easy to prove then that you own the copyright into the artwork.

Copyright in your artwork expires depending on the laws of your country, but is usually between 50 and 100 years after your death. After that date anybody is free to use the artwork to make prints or anything else.


 

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