Paint Basket Member Art Forum

Other => Copyright Questions => Topic started by: Pebble on May 15, 2013, 10:45:35 PM

Title: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Pebble on May 15, 2013, 10:45:35 PM
Sorry folks but I have another copyright question.   :yawn:  I am very new to this fabulous hobby of painting and as I am now on week 11 of Denis's watercolour course   :smart:  I have been looking on the internet for more pictures to paint.  What I would like to know is, can I just download a picture I have found for instance on 'Google Images' (often a painting rather than a photo) copy it, and if I do this am I alowed to put it on the forum for comments and guidance from fellow members.  I am certainly not intending to sell any of these paintings.  I know there are sites which have copyright free photos but I feel it would be easier to copy another painting rather than a photo at the stage I am at with my limited experience.   :confused:  :confused:   :thankyou:
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Maryna on May 16, 2013, 01:22:41 AM
No No No!

You should search on the forum, there were loads of discussions on copyright. Nolan also did a class on Painting from Photographs and he discussed this issue there too.

Use only images from free places like morguefile.com Make sure your sources are always copyright and royalty free! Do not use someone else photograph, it can get you in heaps of trouble, if you do wish to make use of someone's photo, get permission from them. They can just say yes or no!

Good luck and remember rather be safe than sorry.

Ps: I really recommend you watch that class I was talking about  ;)
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: stoney on May 16, 2013, 10:55:13 AM
What does UK law say about copyright? Does it have something along the lines of 'Fair Use' doctrine?
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: nolan on May 16, 2013, 11:51:55 AM
Photos found using the Google Image search are a big no no.

You can paint them, but then you have to keep them for yourself. You may not even share a photo of the painting here / Facebook, etc.
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: ImBatman on May 16, 2013, 12:35:44 PM
Nolan also posted this handy list of lessons you can take that discuss the issue:

http://www.paintbasket.com/members/index.php?topic=4225.msg69472 (http://www.paintbasket.com/members/index.php?topic=4225.msg69472)

Batman

Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Pebble on May 16, 2013, 10:06:55 PM
 Many thanks for your replies, I thought that was probably the case  :(  Oh well I'll just have to go out and take some photos myself and try to paint them, hopefully with help and guidance from my new Paintbasket friends.   :thankyou: for the links Nolan I will certainly have a look at these too, and of course carry on with Denis's watercolour classes.  I love  :painting:

Penny
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Val on May 17, 2013, 03:26:13 AM
That's the ticket Penny. Don't forget we have a section of photos presented for our use right here on PB. PLUS...Nolan's big surprise!  :heeha:
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: ImBatman on May 17, 2013, 03:40:46 AM
Val it's now more like, "Nolan's big announcement" because it's not so much a surprise any more.

 :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:

Batman.
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Val on May 17, 2013, 05:34:58 AM
It is if you haven't seen it yet!  ;)
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: voodoolady on May 26, 2013, 04:41:04 PM
In Australia as long as a % of the drawing/logo is not exact then you can paint it

For instance if someone posted a lovely photo of a sunrise on a lake with trees you can add or remove trees and as it's not an exact replica but your interpretation of the photo then it's not a breach of copyright.

Hence I guess the phrase "artistic license"
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: ImBatman on May 29, 2013, 06:37:14 PM

Ah, don't think so voodoolady.


If you have a gander at this:
http://www.copyright.org.au/admin/cms-acc1/_images/13968746614f389f7994505.pdf


The first question on page 4 - "Can I copy small parts of a work available on the internet?"


Indicates pretty much the opposite. And that is from the Australian Copyright Council.


Batman.
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Denise808 on May 29, 2013, 07:29:00 PM
Another option Pebble, is to check out www.paintmyphoto.com (http://www.paintmyphoto.com). There, the photographers actually want you to paint their pics. There's a pretty nice selection too  :)
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: thebryce on May 29, 2013, 08:36:53 PM
I was recently sent a $2000  bill by Getty Images for an image infraction.  They sent me a copy of my web page and a copy of their art work they claim I copied.  I saw no resemblance.  I ignored the bill and received another. I looked carefully at their picture this time.  I finally saw what happened.  I bought a space on a server that had boiler plate pages. I launched my site using one of their pages and thought nothing of it.  Upon closer examination I saw a 2 cm cloud on my web page that matched a cloud on their photograph.  There was no other piece of art that even resembled the original  Getty image.  They have some program combing the web looking for similar infringements.   Remember, I thought I was purchasing original art work for my web page but the artist took a small 2 cm cloud from a Getty photo, changed its color, digitized it,  and then turned it into part of a city scape. One would never suspect they were related but some how Getty did.  I was billed 2k for something I could have never known.   Be very careful!!!!
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Denise808 on May 29, 2013, 11:11:53 PM
 :o yikes!! :o
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: ImBatman on May 30, 2013, 02:44:32 AM
That's really nasty to hear Bryce.

As far as I can tell, you've been caught on that really crappy edge between the letter of the law and the spirit behind the law.

Glad you let us know. If that's the type of company Getty Images is, then they are filed away in my basket of "never to employ the services of ever."

Did a Google search and look at how their Google results display would suck you in:

Quote
Find high resolution royalty-free images, editorial stock photos, vector art, video footage clips and stock music licensing at the richest image search photo library
(attribution that this was search results text  from Google)

You mightn't have intentionally used it, but so might not the person creating the boilerplate, or mightn't have informed you that they'd included copyrighted material in their boilerplate...

Batman.
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: NHC50 on May 30, 2013, 04:09:59 AM
Oh my Bryce that is awful. Denise yes you can paint those photos on paint my photo, but they are for that website only. You can not put them  {example} on here. Dennis checked that out.
Nina  :flowers:
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: jrhall036 on May 30, 2013, 04:53:37 AM
That is really scary Bryce! I am totally confused.  How can someone--Getty, or any other entity--copyright a shape of an image of a 2 cm cloud?  If that was truly the case, I would think that unless the shape of the cloud was really unique or represented some new concept, the copyright office in Washington, D.C. couldn't have extended protection for just that section of the overall image. And if that were the case, there would be so many lawsuits out there because of similar cloud shapes.  One look at the artwork in my niece's first-grade school class could tell you that.  Did you pay the bill sent to you by Getty already?  If not, I would seek some legal advice before doing so.  I worked as a paralegal in a patent, trademark, and copyright law firm in D.C. over 20 years ago, and from what I remember at that time, when an infraction occurred, the amount of monetary award was commensurate with a percentage of the entire copyrighted image.  Basically, the amount was based on a per inch quota.  The law, or rather the interpretation of the law, could have changed, though.  Nonetheless, even if things have changed and Getty could prove that you committed copyright infringement on that cloud, chances are you would have to pay less in court costs and fines than you would if you paid their bill. If I were you, I'd check with an attorney. First consultations for most attorneys are usually free.     :gl2:

Hugs,
Jani
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Denise808 on May 30, 2013, 09:50:24 AM
Thanks for letting me know Nina, I had no idea!  :o  Appreciate it .....  :)
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: ImBatman on May 30, 2013, 12:33:06 PM
Are you sure about that Nina? You aren't allowed to post the original photos here, but from how I read it you aren't allowed do whatever (including sell) you like with a painting of those photos.

But from how I read it, you can't then go after someone else for copying the painting you do of the image you got from paintmyphoto for infringement of copyright. And as long as you make it reasonably clear that it was a painting done, from a photo from someone on that site, then you are adhering to the creative commons license. Even if you sell the derivative work.

And Jani, I agree with you - $2k for a 2cm cloud in an image isn't commensurate for the particular item in question. On that rate, they are selling a regular photo sized image at around $50k.

It would be interesting to see Getty's books and see some statitistical anlalysis of the legitimate sales against the money made from the methods used on Bryce.

And here is the me coming out in me - if it were me not Bryce, I'd respond to them saying something along the lines of "you've got my $2000, luckily you haven't found any of the others." Let them waste the money chasing ghosts...

Batman.
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: nolan on May 30, 2013, 12:45:27 PM
Bryce, I think you were caught for a hard one there as far as the money is concerned, but they were in their rights to pursue - each cloud is unique, so easy to spot. That is one of the lessons I teach in my painting from photos class.

As far as the Creative Commons license is concerned - if it is share alike, then you may not sell your derivative painting as you got the image for free. You may however give that painting away. You may then also not pursue others that make derivatives of your painting as your painting must also hold the share alike license.


Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: ImBatman on May 30, 2013, 02:08:29 PM
Nolan, riddle me this - the paint my photo site says in their terms of use - and this is a direct quote, no paraphrasing (including the spelling mistake):


Quote
Please consider all photographic material uploaded by members to be under a creative commons attribution non-commercial licence. With the EXEPTION of reproductions of members Artwork. This basically means you cannot download and sell members photos or use them commercially in any way.
You can of course make paintings based on photos and sell them.


My reading of that is only the photograph itself is under the creative commons, not the painting made from it. Is it that they don't have their legal stuff straight??? And we may be unintentionally breaking the law based on their misinformation?


Batman.
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: thebryce on May 30, 2013, 04:48:44 PM
I probably have recourse against the web hosting company that caused me a copywriting snafu. I wounder if I was targeted as part of a group of people using that same server.  To be honest, I have been reediting images for years so it is funny that the one I get caught with is the only page in 20 years I did not make myself.
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: stoney on May 30, 2013, 05:20:47 PM
I probably have recourse against the web hosting company that caused me a copywriting snafu. I wounder if I was targeted as part of a group of people using that same server.  To be honest, I have been reediting images for years so it is funny that the one I get caught with is the only page in 20 years I did not make myself.

I believe you indeed have recourse as you had purchased the right to use the image.  Since the cloud was stolen from Getty they misrepresented their product.  Such is fraud.  (I am not a lawyer and don't play one on the internet)
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: NHC50 on May 30, 2013, 06:11:26 PM
Ok I had to go back to the website and look at the guidelines. Yes you can use the photo and you can also sell your artwork from that photo. But you can not put the photo on here.  Its been awhile since I been on there. My mistake Denise.
Nina  :flowers:
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Denise808 on May 30, 2013, 06:42:37 PM
no problem Nina :) - this stuff can get pretty mind boggling :crazy2:
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Germa on May 31, 2013, 01:32:56 AM
I know enough.
Since it is so much fun to make my own photos, my camera will be my best friend and if I didn't make the photo, I won't paint it.  :blush: (except the classes of course, but they are studies, not for sale, not for showing as my 'own idea'.)

And I think I like it more when I paint my own ideas, in stead of someone else's.
Don't know how it is for you guys, but for me, I've already noticed that it pleases me more to look around my house, my village, my country, to take the right photo, for the right painting.
That's double fun and won't cost me any trouble of  money.
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: NHC50 on May 31, 2013, 04:33:06 AM
Germa I can relate to what you are saying. It is a lot safer just to do your own.  But there are places that I will never see. And I see no problem with looking at other photos. We just got to learn not to copy them. Use them for references. Example- like where you live. I will never come there. So I would enjoy photos of your area.
Nina  :flowers:
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Germa on May 31, 2013, 04:49:14 AM
I enjoy photos of everybody's area, since I can't travel anywhere on my own, but I won't paint them since it doesn't feel right (to me) to paint things I've never seen of will see.
I even changed the jelly beans in the wood class in oils, since we don't have jelly beans, never seen them, never eaten them. Just took candies everyone knows in our country.

And when it comes to the big 5, I'll go to the zoo to see them, but I'll try to catch some Dutch 'big 5' in nature, with my own camera. (we don't have much 'big' animals in our country)
And of course I will take a look at anyone else's photos, but I won't paint them in the way somebody else's photo shows.

It's about 25 years ago I so a mountain (by example), and there are so many beautiful landscapes in my own region, but without mountains, so I think I don't have the 'feel' of mountains, and without feel for mountains, there won't be a lot of 'feeling' in a painting of mountains, when I painted them.

But I think that'll be different for anyone. Maybe I'm just a strange person. ;)
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: NHC50 on May 31, 2013, 06:29:51 AM
We all have our quirks Germa.  :2funny: :2funny:
Nina  ;)
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: thebryce on May 31, 2013, 07:50:51 AM
Germa, I need to send you a bag of jellybeans!
 
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Germa on May 31, 2013, 08:04:46 AM
 :2funny:

hahahaha, you're lucky 'drop' (http://www.voedingswaardetabel.nl/_lib/img/prod/big/dropzoet.jpg) isn't very nice to paint, because those are my favourites.
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Val on May 31, 2013, 10:00:30 AM
Germa, I need to send you a bag of jellybeans!
 

'Jelly Belly' jelly beans  :heeha:    :licklips:
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Germa on May 31, 2013, 10:14:45 AM
Now I get very curious. I have to order them in one of those US-stuff shops we've got.
I already did a google search and found a online shop who sends them home.
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Denise808 on May 31, 2013, 10:22:18 AM
make sure they're "Jelly Belly's!"
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Val on May 31, 2013, 10:31:12 AM
 O0   Another jelly bean connoisseur!  :2funny:
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: voodoolady on May 31, 2013, 04:40:14 PM

Ah, don't think so voodoolady.


If you have a gander at this:
[url]http://www.copyright.org.au/admin/cms-acc1/_images/13968746614f389f7994505.pdf[/url]


The first question on page 4 - "Can I copy small parts of a work available on the internet?"


Indicates pretty much the opposite. And that is from the Australian Copyright Council.


Batman.


The key here is the word "copying" as I said you need to change a % of the image so it is not an exact reproduction of the image.....you can add a tree or animals or change the colours around or all of the above and it's not copying.  I had a friend who had a logo very similar to a well known surf clothing range and he was required to make a 10% change to the image so he didn't breach copyright laws.   He did this and there was no problem.   

If you can 100% replicate an image onto canvas I envy you :)


Also from the same site you will see this under Artists and Copyright
"Ideas and styles are NOT protected
Copyright protects particular works, NOT the ideas, information, styles or techniques used in
creating the works."

More info here

http://www.copyright.org.au/admin/cms-acc1/_images/342838564504046861d3bf.pdf (http://www.copyright.org.au/admin/cms-acc1/_images/342838564504046861d3bf.pdf)

Note this is in Australia only and each country has their own Copyrights laws. 
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: ImBatman on May 31, 2013, 06:12:53 PM
vodoolady, this is exactly why this stuff sucks.

I re-read it and you can't just take a photo of the Eiffel Tower and plonk a colple lovingly look at holding hands. And then go and say this is my new copyrighted painting.

You have to change a "substantial part" what is the (not gonna produce the full text but..) focal point of  the original image.

In Bryces case - and explore every avenue you have to (freely) mate, I think he's been hit by sharks chasing easy dollars.

Batman

Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Denise808 on May 31, 2013, 06:20:35 PM
O0   Another jelly bean connoisseur!  :2funny:

you gotta try jelly bellys with buttered popcorn (theatre butter popcorn is best ;) ) .......
 
I think we're background chatter amongst all this serious legal stuff here Val and Germa  ::)
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: dennis on May 31, 2013, 06:22:49 PM
I know that I have said I will not comment further on copyright, but it seems that most still do not get the crux of copyright matters.
If you take a pertinent photograph or painting and copy it in a different style you have infringed the copyright law. If you take a painting and just change colours to make it look different you have still infinged the copyright of the artist/photographer.

Read my previous remarks: You MUST make SUBSTANTIAL changes so that it is almost indistinguishable from the original.

Here is a section from the Australian Copyright link mentioned in the previous post:

Can I use another person's work without their permission if I make changes?

You do not escape the obligation to get permission by making changes or additions to a work (such as changing the colours). If you put the two works side by side and identify important parts that have been copied, it is likely that you need permission.


Study this paragraph very carefully :(
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: voodoolady on May 31, 2013, 06:34:08 PM
vodoolady, this is exactly why this stuff sucks.

I re-read it and you can't just take a photo of the Eiffel Tower and plonk a colple lovingly look at holding hands. And then go and say this is my new copyrighted painting.


Batman

In Australia you could.....public buildings are not covered by copyright law ie.  You can take photographs and/or paint photos of  the Sydney opera house without the permission of the Opera House Trust
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: voodoolady on May 31, 2013, 06:41:14 PM
I know that I have said I will not comment further on copyright, but it seems that most still do not get the crux of copyright matters.
If you take a pertinent photograph or painting and copy it in a different style you have infringed the copyright law. If you take a painting and just change colours to make it look different you have still infinged the copyright of the artist/photographer.

Read my previous remarks: You MUST make SUBSTANTIAL changes so that it is almost indistinguishable from the original.

Here is a section from the Australian Copyright link mentioned in the previous post:

Can I use another person's work without their permission if I make changes?

You do not escape the obligation to get permission by making changes or additions to a work (such as changing the colours). If you put the two works side by side and identify important parts that have been copied, it is likely that you need permission.


Study this paragraph very carefully :(

It's a very fine line and it also depends on things like the subject....if you are using a photo of the Opera house and you could have taken the same photo yourself then as public buildings do not come under copyright law (unless stated) you would be ok as long as things like clouds, people in the photo or objects are not the same....the keyword is likely and a side by side comparision of key factors .....I guess it's a good thing I prefer to work off my own photos :)
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Val on June 01, 2013, 03:28:24 AM
Plus, the bit that really muddies the waters is that copyright laws will vary from country to country.

My take is this:
If the photograph was taken by someone, anyone, other than yourself....get their permission. If you are unable to get their permission for any reason...DON'T USE IT.
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: dennis on June 01, 2013, 12:53:54 PM
 O0
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: doina on June 01, 2013, 02:13:46 PM
Camera is never to far away from me. Where ever I go, she is with me. I have so many pictures taken, I need a long time to get them done. For exotics, I'll stay with Dennis lessons on turtles, parrots and for sure in the future we will get some more. It is the safe way. Doina
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: stoney on June 02, 2013, 05:23:07 PM
Plus, the bit that really muddies the waters is that copyright laws will vary from country to country.

My take is this:
If the photograph was taken by someone, anyone, other than yourself....get their permission. If you are unable to get their permission for any reason...DON'T USE IT.

Keep in mind their having the query in the first place means you've acknowledged your interest in their work.  If you do construct a painting, even changed, when they've refused permission then you've got no legal defence.
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: Val on June 02, 2013, 06:01:30 PM
If you applied for permission to use a photo and were denied.....why would you then paint that photo? If you did, you would have knowingly infringed on their copyright and have to deal with the consequences. Seems a nobrainer to me.

If you are unable to get their permission for any reason...DON'T USE IT.
No infringement, no problem.
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: thebryce on June 02, 2013, 07:32:32 PM
Remember Napster and then Napsters ghost.  As long as you have no need for legitimacy then feel free to use piracy.  If you want to build a professional reputation you must pay for intellectual property.
Title: Re: Copying Pictures from the Internet??
Post by: nolan on June 04, 2013, 12:53:59 PM
Batman, regarding PMP's copyright. They have taken the CC wording and added their own twist on it by adding that the paintings from their photos can be sold.

Photographers often do this (adapt the standard copyright), that is why it is so important to read each artists own copyright "twist" before using a photo