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Other => Basic Concepts => Topic started by: Tony (ASM) on January 04, 2013, 11:06:38 PM

Title: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 04, 2013, 11:06:38 PM
I've forgotten the guide for creating 'CAST shadow' colours, compared to an objects dark side! Dennis or Nolan, could you clarify for me please?

If I mix 3 tones for a green Apple to cover the light, mid-tone and dark side of the Apple, what colours do I use for its 'CAST shadow' on a white table? Same question for a yellow table?
Put another way, If it was a bunch of Bananas casting a yellow glow on a green table surface, what's the advice for the mix?
 :thankyou:
(I'll bookmark this time!)
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: nolan on January 07, 2013, 02:30:37 PM
the cast shadow will be the shadow colour of the object the  shadow is being cast on, so in your example, you need to mix the shadow colour of the white table
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 07, 2013, 03:30:09 PM
the cast shadow will be the shadow colour of the object the  shadow is being cast on, so in your example, you need to mix the shadow colour of the white table
Thank you Nolan. Does that mean it's black in regards a white table?! Do I add a bit of the apples dark colour to it?
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: patindaytona on January 07, 2013, 05:58:36 PM
Tony, the "object" (apple) has nothing to do with the cast shadow..in ANY case. Now, the apple MAY be reflecting some of it's own color INTO that shadow, but that is reflected light...from it.

If the table is say..white, like you say (most likely indoors, right?), remember in most cases cool light/warm shadows and vice versa.          The table is white..ok, so the cool skylight coming thru the window causes a WARM shadow on the table. (the apple is blocking out that blue skylight (it's certainly not sunlight, correct?)
It's indirect light...blue/cool...skylight.       Warm shadow.       Warm is warm. You can make it a slightly warm of any color (maybe the walls in that room have a certain color..so causing that cast shadow to have some of that color as well.   But always maintain that underlying local color (white table).
If it's a yellow table...maintain that yellow over anything else.   It may get dulled down and even warmer (you can't too much warmer than yellow though..so it would probably be a simple Ochre colored shadow.
If the yellow table were outdoors in sunlight, the shadow of the yellow table would be a cool color from the blue sky bouncing into it...that would make it a slightly greenish-yellow. (i.e. blue+yellow.....equals green (maintaining mostly the yellow of course of the table. Got it?
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 08, 2013, 12:41:20 AM
Thank you Pat for your advice  O0  I think what I've misunderstood and, have been amazed at being corrected by Sue is, I've been thinking that the object casts its own colour in the shadow! Sue's not an Artist but, clearly she's been flapping her ears and sneaking on Paint Basket because, she said ''if you see the colour of the orange in the white table, it's called a REFLECTION, not a shadow, you tool''!!!!  :2funny:  And she's right! I said ''if the table is white and then I must paint the shadow black''. Again, she corrected me with, ''if the table is white, you add a BIT of black to the white to make a grey, you spanner''!!!
So, I stand corrected and  :blush:  (But, I have one last chance to mention the ambient sky colour that you have mentioned Pat!  ;D


So now I'm clear. A Banana's shadow has nothing to do with the Banana (apart from the shape or REFLECTION!). It's the table's shadow colour that's needed. The white table needs a BIT of black + a bit of the ambient colour (sky etc).


 :thankyou:  for all the help. I've bookmarked the page as mentioned earlier so, now if I forget again, I' know where to come (Or I'll print this off).
Any additional advice is more than welcome because I'm getting on with some practicals now.  :yippee:


Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: patindaytona on January 08, 2013, 04:54:43 AM
Tony, i know...these things are hard to see even when looking at them..(blue in the shadow). It's one of those things that isn't always apparent to the eye. The reflected light usually IS though (yellow off the bananna).
Just remember what the light source is. If it's not direct sunlight, then it has to be the ambient blue sky color. I think of it as a blue "light bulb".
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 08, 2013, 04:58:15 AM
I've been 'doodling'! I asked about the shadow colour in relation to these doodles. The shadows I put in a few days ago didn't seem right. I know why now!






Today I tested to see how quick I could do an outline trial of this bowl of fruit and draw it. I did it loose without the photo tracing. I used HB pencil first then, used a 0.8 (thickest) Pilot ink pen (dries water proof) then a 0.2 (thin lines) pen. I wasn't confident on the cross hatching and I need to practice that technique. I'm not always sure where or how to draw it! Not good for a speed drawing!
I took about 20 mins to draw the fruit bowl and about 20 mins to find my camera to post a pic!  ;D 
Larger versions of each image are available here in the Gallery: http://www.paintbasket.com/members/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=506 (http://www.paintbasket.com/members/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=506)




Updated to compare image for the following post by Pat (Thanks Pat ;) )
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: patindaytona on January 08, 2013, 08:56:59 AM
Like your work Tony. Especially the bottom one of the whole fruit bowl. Remember to darken the shadows slightly more near the object's base. Always look for those little things. They keep everything more interesting when you have those different variations. Make them distinct.
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 08, 2013, 09:34:57 AM
 :thankyou:  Pat ;) I've added some more shadow as you advised and It's improved it greatly. I'm still on the learning curve with this so, I appreciate getting feedback. That way I can improve and get to know how things look to others.
I like this pen drawing and I'm doing more practice to get better every day!
Here's that bowl of fruit with more shadows added with the 0.02 (thin) ink pen:


Gallery larger: http://www.paintbasket.com/members/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=6570 (http://www.paintbasket.com/members/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=6570)
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: patindaytona on January 08, 2013, 01:46:05 PM
Yes, more volume to it now O0
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Lillian on January 08, 2013, 01:51:56 PM
Much improved, Tony, I like your drawing.   :smitten:
 Nice bowl of fruit you've got there.  If you eat that stuff you'll stay fit as a fiddle.   :)
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 08, 2013, 01:55:39 PM
Much improved, Tony, I like your drawing.   :smitten:
 Nice bowl of fruit you've got there.  If you eat that stuff you'll stay fit as a fiddle.   :)


I wish Lillian! My trouble is, I like sweets too much. The worse they are for health, the more I love 'em! I like fruit too but when there's a fight for attention between the fruit family and confectionery store, the sweet treats win every time!   :yippee: :D 
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Lillian on January 08, 2013, 02:03:43 PM
Shake hands with my hubby, Tony, I've given up trying to steer him away from the sweets.

Maybe you should both get a cap on that sweet tooth.   :2funny:

I really like the nice array of colors on your Menu Food painting and how it looks like the light is shining on the fruit and the letter H.  It all looks so Tony-ish.   :)


Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 08, 2013, 02:18:24 PM
lol! Lillian, us men know exactly how to treat ourselves! When I go shopping with Sue, she gets the meal items, fruit, veg, bread, etc. I go straight to the sweet dept! trolley gets half full before she spots me!  ;D
It's a bit awkward now though because I hav developed a wheat (Gluten. Not Glutten!) intolerance!


These doodles are my practice run and testing of my new marker pens, water colour and blendable pencils. I don't  care how I get my end result. Mixed media works for me! The marker pens + blendable pencils work very well!


I've got plenty of intentions this year but, I'm a bit, *strike* VERY lazy and, I lack self motivation to get on!
I've got a big bag of Xmas cards to cut up for ideas log for later this year. A illustrated book I want to do. Oil paintings I want to do. Drawing techniques to practice,  more practice with these Copic marker pens and, a living to earn!  :sweat: :yippee:
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 08, 2013, 02:24:42 PM
Ooh! Lillian, I like your last sentence, ' it looks Tony-ish'. Does that mean I have a distinctive, recognisable style developing? I've often wondered if I'd ever get one. It'd be great if I did but, I am a little erratic and swap and change like the wind!  :blush: ;D
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Val on January 08, 2013, 02:29:29 PM
 :yippee: Great job on the fruitbasket Tony  :clap:   :clap: 
As much as I hate to admit it  >:D  it looks like you have a pretty good idea of your shadow colourings.  O0
 :jk:  You really do and I don't hate to admit it ... you're doing famously.  :yippee:
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 08, 2013, 03:20:49 PM
Ah Val! U R such a sweet little Turtle!  :thankyou: 


Yeah, I'm such a shady figure I just had to get them casts laying proper or, I'd be in trouble!
The fruit has been shouting for me to 'be as one with them' (eat 'em!) but, no way Ozzay, not when chocolate chip cookies shout louder!
I'm devoting time to practicals this year. So, I have to be disciplined. I need a kicking into touch. Any willing executioners you know of?!  :knuppel2:

Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 08, 2013, 03:49:26 PM
This is my cluttered desk! (like my mind I suppose!  :D )
I need to have a tidy up. I just moved back to this spot yesterday after using an unsuitable area.
Oh, notice that flexi arm device I got for Xmas. It holds the iPad brilliantly. It's heavy duty and good quality, so far. I can adjust it to almost any way I need it. I just wobbles a little bit when I use the iPad.


larger image here in Gallery: http://www.paintbasket.com/members/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=6577 (http://www.paintbasket.com/members/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=6577)


This picture might show it better:
[size=78%]larger image here in Gallery: [/size]http://www.paintbasket.com/members/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=6578 (http://www.paintbasket.com/members/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=6578)



Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: patindaytona on January 09, 2013, 04:59:01 AM
Your workspace is very nearly like mine tony. One of these days I'm going to end up drinking my cup of turpentine. I always have something to drink right beside me. But my space is very cluttered and tight.
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 10, 2013, 08:29:38 AM
Yeah, my workstation is a very small place in the Hall. It's a disorganised shambles at the moment and will probably stay so for quite a long time!


Today I managed to work within the area though. I made that video I posted ( http://www.paintbasket.com/members/index.php?topic=3397.0 (http://www.paintbasket.com/members/index.php?topic=3397.0) ) and, I've been practising more of my pen drawings. This one of a simple landscape. It's more about learning how to and where to apply those lines. Different directions, angles, distance, cross hatching, shadows etc. I need lots of practice!
Here's the result and the photo:






Gallery link for larger versions here: http://www.paintbasket.com/members/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=6599 (http://www.paintbasket.com/members/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=6599)


*additional* I added trees, Birds and more shadow a day later. To compare:

Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: patindaytona on January 10, 2013, 08:56:43 AM
LIked the video Tony. I also have a very cramped area. It's nuts..the minute I'm looking for something I just put down, i'm looking everywhere..under the bed, everywhere!
Means we have to make everything very very organized in such a tight space. I just put my tracing paper up against my photo that is taped to my window here in the room. Like i said before..as long as I'm not putting 16 x 20 nudes on the window, I'm fine with the neighbors. :D
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: polliwag on January 10, 2013, 08:59:32 AM
Interesting topic, here, Tony.. I think I'll bookmark this too, for future reference.  Your drawings look great.
After reading through, however, a strange picture came to mind of a turtle riding a camel.  Imagine that!   :eek: !
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 11, 2013, 01:44:22 AM
Dianne! That would make a great picture! In fact, it'd make a great movie!  ;D


I've added a couple of trees to my drawing. I wasn't happy with the overall look. It needed trees and a few birds.
I'll leave it there now and get on with more practicals including water colours:


Link to larger version in Gallery here: http://www.paintbasket.com/members/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=6630 (http://www.paintbasket.com/members/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=6630)
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: patindaytona on January 11, 2013, 04:50:16 AM
Everything looks great Tony. Let me just say on the trees to be aware of varying things like the trunks next time. Make each one more indpendent. The curving is nice, but make one slightly less identical ..is the word i'm looking for. ..maybe a little snaking even..some trunks do have bumps etc in them.
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Sarah (arch) on January 11, 2013, 06:10:06 AM
I looked for this yesterday to tell you how much I liked it, but couldn't find it. I really love the sky and clouds. Amazing how hatching can produce that effect. Especially is I am not doing the hatching. The shaping and shading in the clouds is perfect. I like that you have moved from lighter bg to darker in the foreground. O0
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Lillian on January 11, 2013, 07:11:31 AM
I saw your small space, Tony.  Shake hands, mine's the same.  I share our small den with hubby who's a stamp collector and likes to have his stuff spread out past the half way point.   :(

I really like your drawing, liked it better before the trees.  Like Pat says, you could improve them by making them not so much like a pair of twins.  It shouldn't be a problem, just keep those pencils working.  You're doing fantastic work. I love the composition, the lines, the contrasts and the shading, so nicely done!   :congrats:   
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 11, 2013, 07:43:43 AM
 :thankyou: :thankyou: :thankyou:  Pat, Sarah & Lillian. I really appreciate your feedback. I love critique because I see it has thee only way to learn. I get to hear what others see that I may not and, advice, tips and suggestions are the bedrock of my learning curve, especially in this new area of using pens and lines.
I'm loving this illustrative genre of art. I'm a bit lazy in thinking before I apply the scribbles though. I have learned about myself a lot. I'm inpatient, I get bored and demotivated easy, I take the sloppy quick road then regret it and, I lack self discipline!
This picture was interesting to do. I've learned a lot as I go. I think I'd give it 5 out of 10 so far (I may colour it yet! I'll use blendable pencils for some practice).
I've seen black illustrations in books over the years that use this line technique. They are amazing and I wonder how the heck they do them so well. I have a long way to go before I become competent and confident from a basis of wisdom of knowledge and practice!
Back to the grind stone!  :sweat:
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 11, 2013, 07:50:18 AM
Oops! I forgot to mention those trees! Yeah, Pat & Lillian, you are absolutely right about them. I think they lean too much too. Next time I'd put a 3rd smaller one in on the left. Because I added these after the original, the background showed through the trunks :blush: ;D     so, I filled them in! That's why they are dark!
When I set my next drawing out, I'll step back and ask myself 'do I need to add anything to the overall picture that's not on the photo'. Then I can draw it in and make allowances for the cross overs!
Hey, I just thought, maybe I should put some Coconuts in the tree and on the floor?! (Oh, by the way, I did take a photo copy of the drawing before I added the trees!  :smart:  so, I can doodle till my heart's content!  :yippee: 
I may even add a flying carpet and a few Camels Lillian!  :2funny:
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Lillian on January 11, 2013, 07:58:52 AM
I may even add a flying carpet and a few Camels?   8)    :)

Tony, I think I recall somewhere/sometime that Nolan showed us some help as to how/when you're not sure of those last minute decisions as to what else to add to a drawing or painting.

He drew the sketch, (I think it was a person, can't recall exactly), on a piece of clear velum and placed it over the piece.  That way, you can see what it would look like in the end.

I thought it was a good idea.  ...amazed I still have some cache in the old memory bank.   :2funny:
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Zach on January 11, 2013, 10:08:18 AM
Looks very, very nice.  You've done an excelent job.
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: patindaytona on January 11, 2013, 11:37:20 AM
I do like that style Tony...the cross hatching. I don't mean to critisize your work Tony in a bad way. I know that i myself really can't take critisism well at all. I'd rather think I know it all and if not, then learn my way.
On the trees...what i meant was they are parallel to each other. Make on slightly different, either the angle, or even a few bumps along it's trunk to show their is variation between the two. It would be real easy to change that if you wanted to Tony. Even a slight angle (which make things so interesting)instead of big differences, really makes it look great. IT'S YOUR WORK...i'm just suggesting ideas for you. I know what you mean about impatience and regretting. I follow you on that very well Tony.
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 11, 2013, 12:02:59 PM
Pat! You make me laugh! Please, I want to reassure 'ya that I absolutely welcome critique. I can't improve without it. I'm one of those people that needs a kick in the ass! I thrive on bluntness! If something is crap, I want people to say so because, if they don't, and I've signed off a serious picture only to find out later a person harboured a thought critique, but didn't offer it up then, it doesn't help me get any better! Once I sign a picture off, it's then not open for critique. It either hangs on the wall, goes in a cupboard or, if it was part of the learning curse done on scrap paper, then it goes in the recycle bin!
One of the things I force myself to do is, call it a day and move on to the next mission! Like this picture, I got the photocopy out and drew a flying carpet with Lillian arriving on the lake to a barrage of fire from Harpoon Val on her gun-boat!, while you were fishing in the distance and, other members had set up easel on the embankment! I may post it if it's acceptable. So far it's pretty crap!
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 11, 2013, 12:09:13 PM
I may even add a flying carpet and a few Camels?   8)    :)

Tony, I think I recall somewhere/sometime that Nolan showed us some help as to how/when you're not sure of those last minute decisions as to what else to add to a drawing or painting.

He drew the sketch, (I think it was a person, can't recall exactly), on a piece of clear velum and placed it over the piece.  That way, you can see what it would look like in the end.

I thought it was a good idea.  ...amazed I still have some cache in the old memory bank.   :2funny:


Lillian, thank you for that! It's a great idea  :clap:  I will use my A4 paper covers to trial that idea. I can then throw them away if it's no good. They have a large area to use over and over so, yeah, it's a fabulous way.
Thanks sweet cheeks  :1hug: :flowers:
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Lillian on January 11, 2013, 12:30:59 PM
 :urwelcome: Babyface!   :1hug:
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: patindaytona on January 11, 2013, 04:34:48 PM
Tony, make sure it's a big fish, ok? ;D
I usually feel..i don't overlook anything, then when i get critique, it's like, I SAW THAT ALREADY! BUT I WANTED IT THIS WAY...so Tony....don't..
No, it's ok. But like i said, i usually don't overlook anything, it's just that in the end, sometimes i revert things because they have to mesh with the rest of the painting, so it looks like i' left something out, but usually not. That's how it works sometimes.
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on January 13, 2013, 02:45:54 PM
LOL! Pat, the Fish got away!  ;D


I've been trialling the Crayola Blendable (Pro) Pencils. Although they are really good and ideal for many situations, for my personal direction, they don't fit what I want. So, I'm shifting from the cartridge paper over to Watercolour (Hot pressed) smooth paper and, I'm going to use water colour paints. I'm going to see if I can use the Copic markers with them too. I'll use the blendable pencils for occasional transitional blending if needed.
For now, I'm continuing with the drawing using the ink pen until I can get better at the techniques in the PB (Paint Basket) Drawing course and, the specific ones needed in this 'illustrative' technique of line/cross hatching use. A few more weeks then I'm over to watercolour paints used on top of these ink pen drawings.
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: patindaytona on January 13, 2013, 03:04:51 PM
Nice one Tony, nice one :whistle: ;D
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: polliwag on January 14, 2013, 08:09:40 AM
 :2funny: , Tony.. just  :2funny: !
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: NHC50 on January 14, 2013, 08:56:46 AM
Tony nice job. I don't need to tell you what is wrong. Others have all ready done that. LOL
Ps. I agree with them though.
Nina
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: Tony (ASM) on June 07, 2013, 06:31:30 AM
I just had a reread of this thread to clarify the cast shadow colouring again. I laughed at the posts too!  ;D
Title: Re: What Colours To Use For CAST Shadows?
Post by: stoney on June 26, 2013, 10:33:06 AM
Fun With A Pencil (1939)

http://www.alexhays.com/loomis/Andrew%20Loomis%20-%20Fun%20WIth%20a%20Pencil.pdf (http://www.alexhays.com/loomis/Andrew%20Loomis%20-%20Fun%20WIth%20a%20Pencil.pdf)

Loomis video
Loomis Study Series - Fun with a Pencil part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QrtRla3C5c#ws)

Mr. Loomis wrote five books.  'Fun With A Pencil' was his first one.  He wrote is as there wasn't anything like this available.

The Practice and Science of Drawing by Harold Speed
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14264 (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14264)