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Selling your Paintings => Selling your Paintings => Topic started by: Kathysutterlin on November 26, 2016, 07:57:49 AM

Title: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Kathysutterlin on November 26, 2016, 07:57:49 AM
A huge  :thankyou: to Dennis and Nolan for putting the "Selling Your Art" course on sale this weekend. Wow, what a generous offer. I have been looking at this class for months. Again  :thankyou:  :1hug:  :flowers:
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: nolan on November 26, 2016, 12:30:05 PM
 :gl: with the course
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Kathysutterlin on November 27, 2016, 12:52:46 PM
 :thankyou: Nolan.

I've watched and read the first module. I have lots of contemplation and fabulous homework to do. I'm not ready to sell my artwork yet.  I have to create it first.  ;)  I do mostly lessons to learn. What I know for sure is that I love what I am doing and learning. I can't wait to get home to my art supplies in the evening and draw.

I laid awake last night thinking about the mediums I enjoy, my signature, and what would be my recognizable style.
I have lots of ideas bouncing around in my head. I want to continue as I am presently by taking lots of classes, working on my own pieces, experiment and grow.

Thank you for giving me direction as I take the time to hone my skills and prep and plan for an enjoyable future.  :1hug:
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Annie. on November 28, 2016, 06:17:00 AM
That's called PASSION, the key ingredient to success!   :gl2:
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Kathysutterlin on November 28, 2016, 10:57:29 AM
That's called PASSION, the key ingredient to success!   :gl2:

Yes, Annie. The passion is there.  :smitten: I never dreamed I would be doing any of this and had no idea that I would love it so much.

You took this course too, didn't you?

I actually wasn't planning to do the course for another year or so but with the sale price I decided to go for it. This may actually be perfect because I can take my time and apply what the course teaches as I learn. It is already pushing me to get serious about my personal direction.

 :thankyou: for commenting as I really would like to bounce ideas and thoughts around as they come up.  :1hug:
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: plattkj on November 28, 2016, 12:25:47 PM
I agree 100%.    I decided to buy the course as well while on sale.    Started to paint in earnest about 8 months ago and am really enjoying it!    Since I don't have enough wall space for everything I hope to sell some.    My only problem is that right now I hate to part with any of my paintings  :2funny:
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Annie. on November 28, 2016, 07:40:20 PM
You will both enjoy the course.  Yes, I took it when it was relased, as a contemplation for my daughter's art work. 

Just one month ago we decided it was time to start a little business for her.  I started by making some card (greeting cards, blank inside) for Xmas gifts.  I will go see the proof tomorrow.  Next will come business cards, etc.

She got 3 commissions so far...

She won't part from her originals either... so we will consider joining FAA instead, and will slowly check out if other venues are good for her.

That course is simply packed with all you need to know... and more.

Enjoy!

Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Kathysutterlin on November 28, 2016, 08:43:11 PM
I agree 100%.    I decided to buy the course as well while on sale.    Started to paint in earnest about 8 months ago and am really enjoying it!    Since I don't have enough wall space for everything I hope to sell some.    My only problem is that right now I hate to part with any of my paintings  :2funny:

 :yippee:
Oh how nice that you are doing the course too, plattkj. Please do share some of your work with us. I'd love to see what your doing. We have such a supportive and friendly group here.

I have saved everything too. Of course, I can't and won't be selling lesson material.

Like you, I don't want to part with my originals. I did have one commission a few months ago. It was so exciting to create drawings for someone else. Those were easier to part with because I had my client in mind as I drew them. I'm hoping that will be the same as I create paintings and drawing for sale. I guess it's a mindset. As Nolan said, a piece of us goes with the artworks we will sell. That's ok with me. 
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Annie. on November 29, 2016, 05:55:20 AM
Kathy,
I asked that same question to Sharon, PB member, who has a successful art business in California.  Her answer was she paints to sale and that she is happy with keeping a photo of each of her paintings.

She may have more to say if she sees this post, but I guess, yes, it is a mind set.  Maybe it is because at the beginning when we like one of our 'creation' we are afraid we may never be able to do it again...   I know I felt strongly that way when I did my first oil.  My current avatar... really should update that!
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Val on November 29, 2016, 06:43:58 PM
Annie, your avatar is still my favourite of your paintings.
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Kathysutterlin on November 29, 2016, 06:59:20 PM
Kathy,
I asked that same question to Sharon, PB member, who has a successful art business in California.  Her answer was she paints to sale and that she is happy with keeping a photo of each of her paintings.

She may have more to say if she sees this post, but I guess, yes, it is a mind set.  Maybe it is because at the beginning when we like one of our 'creation' we are afraid we may never be able to do it again...   I know I felt strongly that way when I did my first oil.  My current avatar... really should update that!

Yes, Sharon's art business is quite an inspiration to me. If I remember correctly, she has grown and learned right here at PB.

Your avatar is very special.  :smitten: No other will ever be your "first".
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Kathysutterlin on November 29, 2016, 10:00:06 PM
 :) I've been playing around with my signature. I'd love some feed back as to how some of you came up with yours.

I like just my first name best but Kathy is such a common name. Does that matter? I've been signing the last few months with both first and last name but it seems to long for me and takes up too much space on the artwork. I've also been playing around with my initials "kms".

The colored pencil drawing I just finished today has my first name only.  What do you think?

Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: mea hamo pena on November 29, 2016, 10:37:40 PM
I am signature challenged, too.

I love how you write "Kathy."  It flows beautifully.

I use different signatures for different things.  I do a lower-case cursive "mal" for oil and regular watercolor.  I use "mea" for more abstract stuff. 

I use my last name in block letters for pencil work.

aloha

me
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Annie. on November 30, 2016, 06:06:38 AM
Kathy,
Nolan discuss signature in one of the lesson.

Personally I prefer Kathy.  First, it is much easier to remember then KMS.  It would take people time to match you and your painting to KMS.  One reason is because there are no vowel in it, unlike Mea and Mal.  Second your signature is a nice cursive style which make it unique... as opposed to block letter.  So your signature meets the requirement of being unique.

Write your full mane on the back of the painting with the year and media if you like.

Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Annie. on November 30, 2016, 06:10:31 AM
 :thankyou: Val for your kind word.  What a boost for a gloomy -16C day, with all the paperwork of the end of the month to do.
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Kathysutterlin on November 30, 2016, 10:18:29 AM
 :thankyou: Annie
 :thankyou: Mea

I agree with both of you. I really like my signature of my first name only. It feels right and it feels personally mine. I think I'll stay with it.  :hug:
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: JayJ on December 12, 2016, 04:08:39 AM
I like the signature too!
I love the painting!!!😊
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: nolan on December 15, 2016, 02:08:59 AM
you can sign just Kathy if you want, but I suggest you add something to it to make it more unique. I just sign Nolan, but the way it is written is not normal script so I know that another Nolan will not inadvertently sign in the same manner.

SO although your signature is pretty (I do like it), it is too close to normal script so another Kathy could easily have a very similar handwriting / signature to yours.

Remember your signature is one of the 3 elements so it MUST stand out and be memorable O0
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Annie. on December 15, 2016, 06:05:44 AM
So Nolan, you would say the same thing of mine?
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Kathysutterlin on December 15, 2016, 09:48:48 AM
you can sign just Kathy if you want, but I suggest you add something to it to make it more unique. I just sign Nolan, but the way it is written is not normal script so I know that another Nolan will not inadvertently sign in the same manner.

SO although your signature is pretty (I do like it), it is too close to normal script so another Kathy could easily have a very similar handwriting / signature to yours.

Remember your signature is one of the 3 elements so it MUST stand out and be memorable O0

Yes, I do see what you are saying, Nolan. I will continue to work on it. Thanks!  ;)
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Win on December 15, 2016, 11:16:07 AM
I have such an awkward name and surname to try create a unique signature  :heeha:, I have tried so many different ways, in the end I have decided to go with the one on my latest meerkat drawing ,  :confused:
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Kathysutterlin on December 15, 2016, 11:34:17 AM
I have such an awkward name and surname to try create a unique signature  :heeha:, I have tried so many different ways, in the end I have decided to go with the one on my latest meerkat drawing ,  :confused:

Win, I just went back to your Meerkat ,which I still love, to look at your signature. I like it. It is unique.
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Kathysutterlin on December 16, 2016, 07:29:00 PM
Nolan, I would like to stay with my first name if I can create a unique signature. I want something that feels natural and comfortable to write. These two examples are taking my first initial and then writing the rest of my name on a diagonal down the "K". Would something like this make it memorable and unique?
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: mea hamo pena on December 16, 2016, 10:05:29 PM
They both look nice, Kathy.

aloha

mea
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: artistforsaleorrent on December 17, 2016, 05:14:58 AM
Kathy,
just tried sending a message but it probably didn't go through so I'll try this way. After spending almost 3 years conserving and documenting 1000 plus paintings of all media for a private collector some years ago, I found one important aspect for an artist. The full name. In order to price a painting for resale, especially those from the 19th century and very early 20th, "PROVENANCE" must be ascertained. It has to be beyond a shadow of a doubt that the brush strokes, the signature, the medium MUST be identifiable as being from a specific human, or in this case - an artist.

I went nuts trying to find three artists who only signed their first name and a date (one specific water colorist from 1887)... spent over a year on sights like "Ask Art" and failed in all three cases. Can you imagine how hard it would be for a conservator to prove that a painting signed simply "Norman" came from the hand of someone who's last name happened to be "Rockwell"? Even simple initials make the task daunting.

Now I'm not saying that you'll be the next "Rockwell" although your work has improved tremendously since I came aboard and viewed your progress... but consider this: 100 years from now, someone wants to verify that the painting their grandmother bought from a gallery with the signature "Kathy" actually came from your hands and that "PROVENANCE" has to be established before a resale can be made (and if not, it will then go for pennies on the dollar).

Just something to think about... Use your full name! It'll save museums and art collectors a whole lot of time and effort to know that you and not Kathy Ireland or Kathy Anybodyelse painted the fine piece of art they want to display.

Robert
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Kathysutterlin on December 17, 2016, 08:08:04 AM
 :thankyou: Thank you, Robert. I always appreciate hearing from you. I did get your message and responded to it but I'm glad you posted here too. I think this is a great discussion for the forum. You have brought up important facts to consider.

I had been signing with both first and last name for a while. I was not happy with how my signature looked. It seemed to intrude on my artwork.  I share the concern that "Kathy" is not enough. I will go back and play with my signature using first and last name and sign a bit smaller.  ;)


Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Win on December 18, 2016, 10:07:56 AM
Thats an interesting point you have made Robert, I have always used my initial of my first name and  my full surname, then Nolan said we must try and make our signature unique,  :heeha: I have tried every which way to use my full name and surname  "not using block letters " but its impossible. So I modified my original signature.... Looks like I may have to go back to the drawing board.  Going to be a problem to ascertain "provenance" for my art in 100 years with differing signatures  ;D :whistle:
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: artistforsaleorrent on December 19, 2016, 04:48:03 AM
Actually, it's not as hard as you might think as long as the full name is used. Case in point... look at early Norman Rockwell paintings and Saturday Evening Post covers... he used to use sort of a cursive signature then many years later went with the more familiar one.

If a conservator knows the artist's full name, there are many "art research sites" (Ask Art is only one which also provides information on purchasing antiquities as well as biographical material) ... and it's not as difficult as you might think, now with the internet... Think of how much easier it'll be in 10 -20 years, much less 100. And if you paint specifically with oils, they're pretty much guaranteed to last up to 200 years without cracking if they were stretched and varnished correctly.

Acrylics, on the other hand, haven't been available for more than my own lifetime, I seem to remember trying them in my 20's and fell in love with them for certain projects, so there's no real reference to how long an acrylic will hold it's color over a great span of time. However, since it is vinyl based, chances are that the colors will hold for quite a span of years, as plastic tends to degrade much slower than organics like oil and water colors. Also, the later two can be ruined by an over application of water, whereas, acrylics seem to be unaffected by water once dry.

So if nothing else, if you prepare and seal any painting on canvas correctly (or as best you can)... it'll take the canvas itself many, many years to "rot" away and future generations will be able to view and enjoy your creations. As for water colors, I suggest what is called "Conservation or Museum quality mounting and framing"... expensive, yes, needing a very skilled framer, yes........ but believe me, trying to revitalize and conserve a water color which has been stained by "windex"  is extremely difficult and very expensive.... (always, and I do mean always.... take down and lay flat a water color before cleaning the glass and allow it to dry before putting it back on the wall, as those who just clean their framed water color on the wall will find that gravity tends to puddle any liquid on the base and it leaks inside whereby it is absorbed by the mat and the art, as easily as a cotton ball absorbs humidity.... causing discoloration and staining).....

Good luck folks... oh and if interested my web site is http://www.yourbasicwebpage.com/art. (http://www.yourbasicwebpage.com/art.) Always glad to help!
Robert
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Annie. on December 19, 2016, 07:49:52 AM
Point well taken Robert, but isn't it why one should write their full name, title of the painting, and year completed on the back of the canvas?   Then one would only worry about having a unique but simple and easy to remember signature on the front. 

The gestalt image is what I would recall when I see Kathy's signature, more then the word Kathy. 

On that note Kathy, I like the slented idea... but what would you think of slenting it up instead of down?  Especially if in the right lower corner,  it will pull the eye out of the painting (does anyone sign on the top left corner???  that would be unique, maybe for some ultra modern art! 😨 ).  Anyway,  the other thing is that we inconsciously associated up with optimism and down with pessimism.

Food for more thoughts if you haven't settled yet.  But I agree you must find a signature that you first really love and that you feel comfortable that it is 'you'.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: artistforsaleorrent on December 19, 2016, 08:35:05 AM
Annie,

I have to say that I disagree with you for two stark reasons, one physical and one professional.

Having seen the backs of quite a few very very old paintings, one is struck with the fact that the inside/back of a canvas that has hung in a museum for years, that material once white and untreated obviously, tends to turn from amber to dark brown to almost a burnt umber in 75 years. If it was hung in the living room of a tobacco user, or above a fireplace (which is much more common) the untreated canvas will be so dark as to make reading a signature (usually done with ink - the old kind, not the pernament ink ones we have today) impossible. And you'd be surprised how many 19th century artists that I viewed did that! Even with a strong solution of soap and water, add to that the very real chance of washing away the signature ... cleaning untreated canvas is at best a serious decision for a conservator because any water or God forbid turpentine to get rid of the tobacco staining will loosen the threads of the canvas and may weaken the actual adherence of the pigment/painting. Also, if one thought about varnishing their signature to preserve it, realize that a painting has to breathe and if the pigment can't breathe (expand/contract with temperature and humidity changes) the front pigment/painting will be unable to stretch or condense and will crack and peel much earlier that it should.

The second reason I disagree is professional. If I put forth a piece of art, I want every viewer to know exactly where it came from, or perhaps a bit of shameless self promotion, I want them to know I did it, and not someone else. You have no idea how many viewers ask me if I'm related to Robert Henri, even though I spell my surname Henry. They know his name and history, so why shouldn't someday, people either conservators or buyers know the name Kathy Sutterlin and be able to identify her technique as being unique?

So many of you here are on the road to artistic successes. The must be traditional reasons somehow to explain why artists throughout time signed their paintings in front for the world to see, in just the same way that Michaelangelo actually went into the chapel where his Pietá had been installed and during the night, carved his full name on the base. Certainly not for pride or conceit, but rather to make sure that everyone knew "MICHAELANGLUS BONAROVUS FLORENT FACEBAT" (translation- Michaelangelo Buonarroti of Florence made this). Can you imagine history never being able to actually know who, at the age of 24, created the single most absolutely beautiful sculpture the world has ever seen? Sure, none of us will be a Michaelangelo or a Norman Rockwell or even but why leave it to chance? If you don't want folks to know who you are, incorporate and use a Nom du Plume (or probably a Nom du Arte). Point is... put your signature proudly on the front as part and parcel of your art. But this is my opinion folks.
Robert
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Kathysutterlin on December 19, 2016, 02:14:42 PM
I very much appreciate your opinion, Robert. Thanks for all the back ground info.  :thankyou:

I'm glad you shared your website.  O0
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Annie. on December 19, 2016, 03:29:36 PM
Thank you Robert, but please note that my reply was framed as a question.  As I am not an expect on any art topics.  Thanks for your clear explanation.

This is what I have done so far, with modern 'permanent' ink.  It is not on the cotton of the canvas but on the gessoed extension of the front that is wrapped around the stretcher bars.  Probably still not good enough, but again, unlike most of my fellow artists, I am not aspiring to be discovered and art is for my own enjoyment and maybe a bit for some close friends.

Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: artistforsaleorrent on December 20, 2016, 06:25:09 AM
Annie,
I suppose that will work for you, as long as when it's set in a frame, the clips holding the stretched canvas don't cover or scratch your information. I did notice one small item that caught my attention though and I'm presupposing that you actually went through the formality of obtaining a copyright or else using the circle c isn't warranted--- as paintings alone usually aren't copyrighted. It's when you decide to commercially reproduce the actual image of the painting as a series of prints or in a book that copyrighting becomes necessary. A painting usually has a single owner for a certain period of time. And since they own that painting, they can do anything they want with it, including having a print shop photograph it and copy the image onto any material they so choose, without your permission- copyrighted or not,--- unless of course, your contract for the sale of the painting involves verbiage that precludes such action without your permission.

But just for your information and for others... if you didn't fill out the forms, sent in the copyright licensing fee with the form, and wish to commercially reproduce the image (not the painting but as several gicleés and want to sell them), you can still legally copyright your work by using a very simple method I was informed by my own attorney and used in my early days before including these fees  to copyright the artwork I created to illustrate someone's book---- and believe it or not, I still maintain a plastic tub full of these very early works ------ simply take a photograph of the art, place the photo in an envelope addressed to and from you but NEVER open it after you receive it back. Simply write the date on the envelope when it arrived, sign it, have a mate or friend witness it with their own signature and date, and file it away. Should there be any questions concerning the authenticity of the art by your own hand, your lawyer can present it as evidence, the magistrate will then open the sealed envelope and reveal it's contents, obviously proving your copyrighted work. But remember, once you sell the painting through a gallery or via private means, your copyright is therefore null and void, unless, again, your purchase contract says that the image may not be commercially reproduced without the expressed permission of the artist "so and so", and that it is the responsibility of the buyer "so and so" to communicate such proposed action prior to the actual implementation of the reproduction process.

I understand that you may be painting for your own enjoyment and I admire this attribute. Be forewarned though, once others see the art you give to your close friends is viewed by their own circle of friends, you may find yourself being asked to "paint something for me, please" and as I did as a teenager, find yourself on the road to a career as an artist.
Then my friend, you might just find yourself unknowingly and unintentionally "discovered". Good luck, Annie.

Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Annie. on December 20, 2016, 07:07:59 AM
Yes this painting was dutifully copyright.  It was circumvoluted and I do not claim I fully understand why, as I thought giving the painting with a  simple written permission for them to use for publicity should have suffice.

I was happy it was my painting of course, and this is the extend of me being... discovered ☺  I actually did not like it, not my style.  I just followed their spec and did it at their request... not many offer to give a painting from established artists 😕   I am fully aware it is not recommended to do that and I understand the implications, but I am okay with it. 
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: artistforsaleorrent on December 20, 2016, 07:12:47 AM
Friends,

After penning this reply to Annie and while sitting outside in our screened-in porch, smoking a cigarette and drinking my second cup of coffee, I suddenly came to the abrupt thought that many of you might not have the slightest idea what your legal rights may involve before and after you sell a painting while commissioned, from a gallery, or at an art fair. I thought to myself that many of you might not even have an "Artist's" contract and are therefore very vulnerable and unprotected should someday you see a proverbial mass of your individual painting being sold on the roadside or appearing on a commercial calendar. And while this may bring you some pride, it also means that you lost some revenue due you.

My attorney prepared this for me in 1972 and I've used it exclusively without a single problem ever since. Feel free to copy and paste it onto your own word processing program and alter it to your own specific intent.

_____________________________________________________________



YOU
your mailing address
your phone number
your email or web site address

INVOICE/CONTRACT

      WITNESS THIS AGREEMENT BETWEEN (you)
hereinafter referred to as the Buyer, and you, owner of (your art studio), hereinafter referred to as the Artist.
       WHEREAS, the Buyer has examined the Artist’s portfolio of available completed works of Art and desires for the Artist to produce works of Art in accordance with the hereinafter generalized specifications, and
       WHEREAS, the Artist is willing to produce such a work for the Buyer.

NOW THEREFORE WITNESS this Agreement, for that and in consideration of the sum of (one half the amount) by check/direct deposit/Paypal/credit card, the receipt of which is hereby acknowledged, the Buyer agrees to buy and the Artist agrees to produce and sell to the Buyer for the sum of (the total amount), a work or works of Art to be produced with the following general specifications, to-wit: all the    ( you then generally describe the illustrations, including interior and covers for the book " --- "  / oil acrylic water color painting/portrait/land or seascape, etc ) titled such and such).

The purchase price shall be paid as follows, to-wit:
$ (1/2 of the agreed amount) (USD/Euros) to be paid as a non-refundable earnest deposit.
$ (1/2 of the agreed amount) (USD/Euros) to be paid upon completion of the commission.

Completion of the works of Art shall be on or about (whenever the parties agree on it) and the parties agree that unless it is specified by a deadline date, the completion date is not a matter of essential timing. The Artist agrees that in so naming a completion date, he will complete the works of Art, bearing in mind that should unforeseen circumstances prevent him from completing the aforesaid works of Art, he/she will recompense the Buyer under the provisions of this Agreement, these being: delivery of the works of Art “as is” and payment of a sum derived from the amount of $10.00 (ten dollars) per working day from that date, to the Completion date contained herein.

The Buyer shall have no right or interest in any particular work of the Artist until such a time as the Artist actually produces all the works of Art heretofore described for the Buyer.

The parties agree that should the Buyer fail to accept delivery after notification that the works are completed by the Artist as previously stated, or fail to pay the additional cash at the time of delivery, or should the Buyer otherwise default under terms of this Agreement, the measure of damages due to the Artist by the Buyer shall be assessed as $20.00 (twenty dollars) per working day from the time of the execution of this Agreement to the day of default, plus any expenses and costs incurred by the Artist in the production of the works of Art, interest from the Agreement delivery date at the applicable judgment rate, reasonable attorney’s fees incurred by the Artist in connection with this Agreement or with the enforcement of this Agreement, and all court costs.

The Buyer agrees to accept delivery of the works of Art within seven (7) working days after the Artist notifies the Buyer that the works of art are completed and the Buyer, unless otherwise specified in this Agreement, shall own full rights to the actual painting/illustrations forever.

The Artist agrees and informs the Buyer that the finished works of art are the sole property of the Buyer and that the Buyer ...    may/may not     copyright and/or commercially reproduce the work of art .... without the written and/or oral consent of the Artist.

The terms and provisions contained in this Agreement shall apply to, inure to the benefits of and be binding upon the parties hereto and their heirs, successors in interest, and legal representatives, except as otherwise expressly provided.

This Agreement and any rights hereunder, except as otherwise provided herein, shall not be assigned without the prior written consent of the other party. This Agreement contains the entire understanding between the parties and may not be modified except by written memorandum signed by both parties.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF the Buyer and the Artist have executed this Agreement this (today’s date), and affixed their signatures.



( SIGNATURE )  _____________________________________   Author

_________________________  Date




( ELECTRONIC SIGNATURE ) You the Artist
(today’s date)




Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Annie. on December 20, 2016, 07:17:54 AM
A painting usually has a single owner for a certain period of time. And since they own that painting, they can do anything they want with it, including having a print shop photograph it and copy the image onto any material they so choose, without your permission- copyrighted or not,--- unless of course, your contract for the sale of the painting involves verbiage that precludes such action without your permission.

???  That cannot be correct.  I cannot buy one of Nolan's painting and them go make giglees of it.  I canot even print greeting cards from a painting I did following one of the classes on PB.

The copyright remain, by default, with the artist.   In Canada there is an obscure exception for commissioned portrait.  Canadian artists who do portrait on commission are careful to attach a clear understanding of who has permission to do what... just in case.
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Annie. on December 20, 2016, 07:20:20 AM
As for the self mailed image, would an electronic date stamped attached to the photo do the same.  I would like to know what a lawyer would say to that.
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: artistforsaleorrent on December 20, 2016, 07:27:32 AM
Actually Annie,

I have donated paintings for seven years at this point, to the Jason Plite Memorial Foundation, free of charge to the organization who then silently auctions them off to obtain proceeds to fund college scholarships for deserving high school students. And truth be told, these paintings go without legal representation - no contract, just a belief that these paintings will "find a home" and stay there for enjoyment not for further profit. I do receive a statement to use should I determine that I could use these as a "tax write off, a donation so to speak" after the yearly event, but have never done so to date.

The generalized contract I posted while you were posting your note might very well not apply for that specific event, but I urge all reading this continuing conversation, to thoughtfully consider using a contract such as this if you don't already do so, and to pass this on to many of the Paint Basket members who may not be so inclined or knowledgeable of the business aspects of Art. And while I'm not at all acquainted with New Zealand copyright specifics, I am inclined to believe that such a contract would protect you folks as well.

Feel free to connect should questions arise.
Robert
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Annie. on December 20, 2016, 07:28:53 AM
Friends,

After penning this reply to Annie and while sitting outside in our screened-in porch, smoking a cigarette and drinking my second cup of coffee, I suddenly came to the abrupt thought that many of you might not have the slightest idea what your legal rights may involve before and after you sell a painting while commissioned, from a gallery, or at an art fair?


I fully agree.  My most important concern is actually not infringe on any one else copyright and intellectual property, both at work and in my artistic pursue.

I will know leave the discussion to established artists... but will keep reading.

Kathy you started a great discussion with your question about your signature.
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: artistforsaleorrent on December 20, 2016, 07:59:31 AM
Annie,

Unless Nolan specified within the guidelines of this entire web site/school that his images used as practice or as a learning tool were never to be reproduced or that anyone violating the "rules" so to speak would be prosecuted in New Zealand for a copyright infringement by doing so, I suspect seriously that an unscrupulous person could in fact take an electronic image of their attempt at reproducing one of his practice images to a gicleé shop and produce several "for sale" and Nolan would be none the wiser, since I suspect his roots are deep in that part of the world, I dunno, maybe by chance he sees one hung in a gallery during a visit to Montreal or Quebec and then what?

If I bought a painting from you, without an agreement that I could not reproduce it, and I were unscrupulous (which believe me I am not) how could you possibly stop me from doing so? Or if the inverse were true, how could I, without a legal agreement, stop you from doing so? Perhaps after the fact, I could proceed legally, and perhaps after the fact, I could receive a favorable judgement in an American court, but I'd need an international attorney to actually enforce such a finding in Canada. Hardly worth the expense, unless of course, you were selling them at Walmart or ArtRUs, getting thousands daily by sheer volume, and even then, my settlement would be peanuts when considering the lawyer's fees.

Worse though, at least to me, would be your googling my name, going to google images, and making a screen shot of one of my pieces or part of the books I have illustrated, printing it on your HP desktop printer, then taking it downtown and reproducing hundreds of it as your own. This is what bothers many of us tremendously. First, how do we know it happened, two, how can we prevent it and three how can we prosecute that unscrupulous individual in China or Pakistan or sadly to say in Russia?

With google by-laws, even today any image you post on the world wide web (even here I suspect) in an email, a public eForum or on a web site automatically becomes a google image and is available as an aol image, a bing image etc. Even with an embedded copyright watermarked symbol, anyone (and I gasped loudly when a snot nosed high school freshman with Photoshop pulled one of my images, and in minutes erased my watermark while I watched mesmerized) can reuse/reproduce/steal the fruits of our labor. The American legal system is very far behind the ball on this issue... but I digress.

The contract is for the purpose of protecting yourself while the sale of your single piece of art progresses and afterwards if you so choose. Hope this helps -
Robert
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Annie. on December 20, 2016, 08:28:25 AM
There is a clear Agreement (last post on the forum) that you have agreed to when you sign in.  Also the following is part of any classes and I find it very clear, fair, and straighforward.  I copied one randomly.   

Of course people can steal, but it doesn't make it any legal because they don't get caught.  :knuppel2:   I also have a beef when I hear something like  "it may not be ethical, but it is legal so I do it"... makes me boil inside.  I am sure most artists conduct themselves in a highly professional manners, and the bad ones are the exceptions.

Publisher Artist and Author
Paint Basket Ltd Nolan Clark
14 Ian Sage Ave
Torbay
New Zealand http://www.paintbasket.com (http://www.paintbasket.com)
Legal

The author and publisher have made their best effort to provide a high quality, informative
document. However, they make no representation or warranties of any kind with regard to
completeness or the accuracy of the contents of this text. They accept no liability of any kind for
any losses or damages caused or alleged to be caused, directly or indirectly, from using the
information contained herein.
.
Still Life Painting Essentials
Copyright 2012, All Rights Reserved.

No part of this publication may be stored in a retrieval system, transmitted, or reproduced in any
way, including but not limited to digital copying and printing without prior agreement and written
permission from the authors.

Please Note
This book is for personal use only and is part of a course available at http://www.paintbasket.com (http://www.paintbasket.com)

You may NOT sell, rework, extract, or use any part of this book for any reason whatsoever unless as
stated below.
If you are a business, tutor or instructor and would like to use our material, please contact us first.
You don’t like it when others steal your artwork / ideas. This book is our work of art, so please
don’t steal our art either.

You May :
Make photo copies of the reference material in this manual in order to paint your own version of it.
You may NOT sell the artwork produced from following the course. The course and artwork
remains our intellectual property and copyright. All other copyrighted materials remain their
respective owners, as credited throughout the manual.

All paintings and photos marked “public” underneath are public domain and may be copied and
sold.
Still Life Painting Essentials – paintbasket.com 128
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Kathysutterlin on December 20, 2016, 09:59:55 AM
 :clap: Oh Yes, Robert and Annie. This is a most interesting and informative topic. I have nothing more to add as you both covered the topic of copyright thoroughly. Many thank yous. I am enjoying the education much.  :hug:
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Annie. on December 20, 2016, 10:27:26 AM
Kathy,
You can learn even more with Dennis.

In the Forum, under Other, see Copyright Questions:  Dennis write 6 articles (part 1 to part 6) on this subject.  They are excellent to get all the basic you need to avoid legal problem, and tips to also protect your work.
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: artistforsaleorrent on December 20, 2016, 11:06:55 AM
Thank you. I was unaware of these documents, even though they don't apply to those not taking Nolan's classes , those who are offering their expertise and sage advice to those of you who are either just starting out or are mature enough to request additional technique advancement. However, this is the world wide web and I suspect unscrupulous individuals within or without can "borrow and augment" anything we post without ramifications other than getting "kicked off this web site". Real world ethics may apply, notwithstanding the integrity of members, but our original conversation was about copyrighting a single painting.

As for the legalese by Nolan in signing up to participate, that's obviously for those who participate in his classes and is quite valid per say copyright issues but we weren't discussing his artwork. I started this concerning your own use of the circle c which you readily explained was handled by the other lawyer... Case closed. However, I still maintain that any artist here should 1)have a contract with anyone they do business with and 2) if a contract is necessary, make sure the reproduction rights are protected.

When I was the owner and manager of the Eons.com Art School (now defunct of which many many members came here for further art instruction which is also how I personally found you), we had one fellow who made screen shots of some obscure yet very accomplished artists and claimed them to be his own. Several of the 200 plus members notified me that they'd been to other web sites which showed the exact same artwork done by other hands. And while I could somewhat understand a youngster wanting to impress us oldsters and quite possibly obtain "work" as a result of these false claims, I nonetheless contacted the "powers that be" of Eons.com and had his account deleted immediately. I'm sure Nolan, as artist and administrator is busy enough actually administering this entire site, plus trying to create art which increases his financial status outside this web address, to be as observant as I was and would address these matters quietly and quickly. But this leaves us from the question of copyright establishment and/or infringement.

My question for all reading this... what happens to your artwork after it has been sold to an individual and do you have any resources to prevent it from becoming "Public domain"?
Robert
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: nolan on December 20, 2016, 12:05:50 PM
Kathy - your new slanted signature is great as it contains a slant that is unique and unusual :yippee:

Annie - your signature is fine

First and last name in signature - I don't agree that you need to use your first and last name in your signature. If there is ever any doubt about the originality of your artwork, or if it is fake, there are other methods to test. Any forger will be able to sign your name perfectly no matter how long it is. Experts will be able to tell if your artwork has been forged by looking at things like the brush strokes used, materials used, etc.

Copyright - The minute you produce an original artwork, it is automatically protected by copyright. This means that you do not have to register each artwork at the copyright office.

Proving you own the copyright into a manuscript / book is as simple as posting it to yourself and then never opening it again. To post a photo, etc. to yourself is pointless as it only proves you had access to the artwork at the time of posting.

Further when you sell an artwork, you retain the copyright into that artwork and do so until the copyright expires, it does NOT transfer to the buyer unless agreed to in writing. This means that the buyer is NOT free make or sell prints of the artwork, etc.

You however CAN make and sell prints of a sold artwork. You don't need permission or anything from the buyer of the original as you own the copyright into the artwork. Having said that I feel it is only fair that you inform the buyer of the artwork that you will be / are selling prints, etc. of the artwork BEFORE they buy the artwork. My recommendation now and in the course is that the artwork you are going to make prints of are kept in your personal collection for three reasons : a) This makes the prints exclusive b) If you ever need to re-photograph the artwork you can, c) you as the artist have the original which makes it very easy to prove then that you own the copyright into the artwork.

Copyright in your artwork expires depending on the laws of your country, but is usually between 50 and 100 years after your death. After that date anybody is free to use the artwork to make prints or anything else.
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: dennis on December 20, 2016, 01:42:37 PM
I agree totally with what Nolan has just posted.

It does not matter which way you sign your name. There is no protocol on how to sign your name. Even a special mark or icon is legitimate if you so wish to sign your name.

Copyright is a very specialized subject, so, to avoid any confusion among the members, if anyone wanting to comment on this subject PLEASE clear it with either Nolan or myself BEFORE posting to the forum.



Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Kathysutterlin on December 20, 2016, 05:02:02 PM
Thank you Dennis and Nolan. We continue to get quite an education at PB.  O0 For the signature, I really do like the slanted version too.  ;)
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: dennis on December 20, 2016, 05:26:30 PM
Kathy, I have changed my style and signature many times during the course of my 73 years in the art world, and I can confidently say that it has neither affected my reputation nor my sales. Any painting with my present signature starts from the time I became a professional artist (earning my living and paying taxes from it) over 25 years ago. All paintings prior to that were done as a hobby. Yes, my hobby become my job and still loving it  :yippee:
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Kathysutterlin on December 20, 2016, 05:57:19 PM
Kathy,
You can learn even more with Dennis.

In the Forum, under Other, see Copyright Questions:  Dennis write 6 articles (part 1 to part 6) on this subject.  They are excellent to get all the basic you need to avoid legal problem, and tips to also protect your work.

Thank you, Annie. I will check out these articles.  ;)
Title: Re: Selling Your Art Course
Post by: Kathysutterlin on December 20, 2016, 06:00:03 PM
Kathy, I have changed my style and signature many times during the course of my 73 years in the art world, and I can confidently say that it has neither affected my reputation nor my sales. Any painting with my present signature starts from the time I became a professional artist (earning my living and paying taxes from it) over 25 years ago. All paintings prior to that were done as a hobby. Yes, my hobby become my job and still loving it  :yippee:

I think it is fabulous that you made your hobby such a wonderful and successful business, Dennis. The bonus is that we all benefit from what you love to do.   :smitten: